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Post by duckhnter83 on Mar 30, 2014 18:33:38 GMT -6
My car is tight getting in and loose off. Its a 3 link northern sport mod. Scale numbers lf 535 rf 489 lr677 rr 646 56.3 rear 51.6 left 31lbs lr bite Shocks are 3/5 rf 5/3 lf 5/3 lr 4 RRBar angles are 20° lr 2°rr Springs are rf 650 lf 600 rr175 lr200. Would increasing rr bar angle help? I would think when the car rolls over its getting negative angle is tgis bad? Maybe more left rear bite? Any help would be great!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Mar 30, 2014 20:15:29 GMT -6
You may have already read my other post on set-ups old school, if not you may do this to get a better understanding why your car is tight and loose! Look at each thing with one thing in mind of what you want it to do! There are about 5 basic setups used on cars and each has good and bad points to deal with! Your numbers are close but tight with steer adding to loose! Level the car, put all the bars in a mid range on both sides! Check the lead in the rear end to zero! Put a 100-200 pound split with the stronger on the right front and a 25-50 split stronger on the left rear! get rid of the J-bar angle down to a 3-5 adjustment to free up the car when lifting the throttle instead of holding it down on the left side or making it hike and steer when on the throttle! Lean it left( 1" in ft. and 1/2-3/4" rear to change lead to closed and bar angles of a working even range when rolled for more steer and even traction of both rear wheels with at least 80-100 plus bite! 3s or 4s rear shocks even and a straight valve front 5 left and a straight 3 on the right! Your shocks need to work the same on the corners going in and coming off to unload or tighten getting of by weight transfer! Just stop and think of what you want to move first to get looser in and tighter out! The car has to nose and send the front weight to the left ft. then to rr to plant side right rear to have side bight in order to roll while the cross is the pivot! When nosing the left rear will hike giving steer enough to turn going in and when rolled the rear should go from closed 3/8 to open 1/2 and does head that way just by lifting the throttle if springs are correctly matched to weight per axle! This works on any car and my other post may be in another class! We have ran all setups in years past of 4 bars and swing arm z-links and fith-arms and pull bars to no end! More info is needed if you wish to stay with what you have! Tight in is too much j-bar angle or location! Both bars steer and if hiking is steering too much trying to get off the corner with not enough bight to create drag on the left rear to help turn going in or traction off! Idle the engine up and the back drag will be less on the left side j-bar holding it down when lifting or add throttle to turn it loose with a spring pull bar! Some movement in pull bars can be a plus to free it up going in! The left front weaker spring should have 100-200lbs more than the right to allow the unloaded rt. to nose without compressing the left! The left being loaded is ready to help roll the chassis going in smoothly with a 5 shock and the same process reverses when on the throttle with a 3 to stop steering and hook off the corner! Drive ability will up your corner speed! I hope this helped some how and ask away on any thing you need as to under stand and figure this out!! Just swapping sides with ft. shocks may help as to working against you now as is the j-bar angle or location!
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Post by Toywagon on Mar 30, 2014 23:11:24 GMT -6
What size/shape/surface are you running on?
If your tight in on a heavy track, the adjustments will be completely different than if your on a slick track.
Tight getting in will almost always cause a loose off condition too.
On and off throttle are just as important as well.
Can you break your corner entry down a bit more with what the car is doing as you enter the corner, vs what you want it to do?
Jim
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Post by duckhnter83 on Mar 31, 2014 4:54:40 GMT -6
What would you do for both on the gas and off the gas. We run mostly dry slick. Its pretty much tight all the way through entry. I can get it to somewhat turn in but then it pushes the front until mid corner and as I start to come out it will get really loose. When would you make a right side bar adjustment? I was told moving it up would loosen entry??
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Mar 31, 2014 8:28:44 GMT -6
Your car is too flat to pivot over, spring rates too low in front and backwards as to helping and both left side springs needs to be compressed to help it roll. You have need of more cross to put weight on the rt front to hold going in when nosing and right side bite to get in, this happens just by lifting the way I do things when it noses with left bite to help drag the car left! It takes lt bite enough left over when rolled to still hook and enough compressed lt rr spring to move and not loose bite to keep from getting loose going in. The ft rt load on the weaker spring you have now does not provide planting because of the cross changing to a negative when nosing instead of equalizing while lifting to more balance all traction to hold the car and teeter! you need to have compressed heights to help roll with out loosing too much traction on any wheel when rolled! The bars if correct need not ever be moved as they are doing the things that they only can! The same goes for every adjustment! Do you have to change your daily driver just to fit the road you are on, gravel, paved, wet or dry? A happy point for each part to do its job correctly! I never change track to track and this still wins in any class and most drivable on any surface! The car rolls the same and steers with bite! If I could change my wife or make a few adjustments it might help at the moment but after 34 years of winning with her I don't want her changing me because I hate adjustments as to all else effected reversely! When I set a car up a new car for the first race of its life, even if mid season when everyone should be on top of there game, and just go and we win, I can only think this works just fine with room for marginal errors! A good mid range set up with compressed heights to cover any track or surface! Moving left side bars higher than the right never allows the rear end to close back to drive under all the hikers moving off the bottom with all that steer coming off the corner! The more they gas the harder they steer! We have driven through 5 cars at top speed in one corner because you can drive this set-up when rolled with bite and 4 wheels planted firmly! A J-bar should only be used to hole the rear end under the car once you find its free spot to work with roll center,3-5-7! Any adjustment off of this spot creates problems! Traction is best left to the pull bar and weight transfer! Steering rods are the same in steering an not used as traction control once in a totally hooked and steer position! If every one thing does it's own thing and stops arguing with others things, the car and driver is happy but still, some more than others! I tend to be more positive steer on the right to hook it a bit more as the left has five ways of hooking and the right not so many, this helps it turn better and straighten up better as it is even when rolled but it helps push the car back to static weights coming off! I run a negative lower left on a indexed 4 bar to lessen left hike and steer! Traction on two wheels is faster if done correctly! The mane thing is keeping enough roll-out and the front wheels on the ground to steer and transfer weight! Extreme caster is used to twist the frame to steer the rear as well as the ft with more weight transfer by the driver simply turning the steering wheel! If correctly done this never even has to happen! Just lift and mash on the throttle and the car does its thing! This is done all with more rear, left, cross, left ft. and left rear than most set-ups can run as to a left turn while keeping straighter threw the turn is faster and most easy on the right rear tire as a norm is gaining 2 pounds and 1 on the other three!
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Post by Toywagon on Mar 31, 2014 23:02:35 GMT -6
Some of these B mods have alot of suspension movement, hike, and roll, and some of these cars stay really flat without alot of hike up and suspension movement.
Would you say your car has lot of hike and movement, or is it more of a flat type of setup?
Jim
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Post by duckhnter83 on Apr 1, 2014 5:39:32 GMT -6
It has some hike.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Apr 1, 2014 6:36:30 GMT -6
I would say that it is when you are loose getting off as to the un-needed steer! A static open rear will most always be loose off with added steer unless on three wheels! A 75lb. rear split, stronger on the left will make a full size car carry the left ft if the right front is stronger as long as the spring rates matches the car weight and staying with a positive cross weight! Spring reversals are needed to control this or just use a 25 split and get on with it turning left! I do run stronger right side springs when using a j-bar! A 100-200 split in the ft. and 25-50 rear! But I keep my rear closed a bit and roll to open! My right side bars higher than left to even out when rolled as to move the car evenly when rolled letting roll out do its job! This keeps the car straighter and most drivable while in the turn making you faster so much, many have had to change gears after switching to this smoother transition! The j-bar has to be lowered and shortened to a 3-5-7 inch adjustment to keep from hiking and changing steer rates when on the throttle when rolled! If you can roll threw without throttle and can then use it going in without upsetting that, you will be faster! Idle it up to 2500 rpms for the test run! Start slow and work up to speed staying straight as you can! A 6 degree left and 8 right on the bars is a good starting point with 1/4- 3/8 closed rear. Rear steer is faster steering and needs very little to put you around the turn fast! A 2 inch roll on each side and no more lift than 4'' at the flag is good as not to top out too soon and loose traction! After a few test runs we normally drop to 4 and 6 with added speed once driver is comfortable in the car!
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Post by Toywagon on Apr 1, 2014 16:01:10 GMT -6
Still sounds like your just way tight on entry. You don't notice it on a heavy or tacky track as much, because you can just throw the car in hard and stand on it and drive right on thru it.
You can run your LR bite up, which will loosen you on entry when your off throttle. Depending on your throttle control it might be a bit pushy right in the middle when you come back to throttle, but this adjustment will help tighten your on throttle exit.
If your turning your steering wheel left on entry, especially on dry slick, and then having to break the rear end loose to get it to turn, you will always have a loose exit.
One other point to check. Have you checked your rear end as to side to side location in the chassis? If you have the rear end over on the car to the left, you will get a pushy feeling car. You might re-check that the rear end is in the car laterally per your builders #'s.
Jim
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Post by ukblue on Apr 3, 2014 16:27:07 GMT -6
flipflopoo1oo when you say to lean car left is the ride height lower on left
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Apr 3, 2014 19:38:01 GMT -6
Yes! On the frame behind the ft wheel 1-1.25" and in front of rear wheel 1/2-3/4! The car rolls to level! If more it doesn't want to come back to quit steering coming off the turn! Using this you can drive under most any car still steering getting off the bottom as they drift out the harder they mash on the gas as you go by on the inside! Be sure to read all my post carefully as to how this works as it is a package deal of complex issues to understand why each has to be a certain way not to fight the rest of your set-up! Most drivable any where and any time to win with out changing a thing at the races! A turn of the steering wheel does all the changes for you! All things even out when rolled to move with out transitions upsetting the chassis when in or out of the throttle in the turns! Its nice to steer and go where you want any time while on or off the throttle! A Sunday drive on a race night! Just a logical look at things that have to work together! Works and wins in every class of cars! Leaf or coil! With a few of my motor tips applied on any motor and car for 35 years! It has been fun putting a car ahead of the money every time! No cheating with me around needed! Ask all you need help understanding!
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Post by mchizy on May 11, 2015 7:40:05 GMT -6
I was in ?? on J bar angles 3 5 7 is that degrees and are your ride height with driver in car I weigh 260lb any suggestions I am snap loose of little bite thanks read most of posts
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on May 11, 2015 8:57:18 GMT -6
With you in is always the correct --- from the floor up as no good degree to most variations in designs of bars! 3 inches is a basic neutral start if in the correct local of free spot to the roll center of just coasting in and not holding the natural roll of the car! 5 inches higher will push upwards and change hike and bar angles to add side bite and steer depending on how hard cross and left side is holding it down on the left rear when lifting-- on the throttle the steering bars can push up and cause all to hike and change all things from their settings! Speed hitting the turn and angle of seer with side bite and side thrust car vary so much that more than seven inches gets too radical unless controlled by lock ing up on the bars or chains to limit hike! As the diff. moves under a throw of the weight can cause a sudden unwanted change if wanting to stay smooth! Also the extreme angle holds the left side down when lifting the throttle and cause a tight or loose condition by too much left-rear causing it to drag the car left or push from not getting natural steer from rolling in! Foot control then becomes most important as to releasing its hold! This creates a traffic nightmare as to getting in and out having control of steer!!! Advantage is not extreme and perfect being able to drive in natural and then having no upset in getting traction on the right drive getting off! Any other change in bars or pounds has to be re-perfected at the J-bar! And most think my way is complicated-- nope just trying to hold all my setting to be in control rather than the track-driver or speed dictating changes!!!
Make it drive in off the throttle and bite with pull bar instead of using j-bar or left side steer bars for traction! Let the right have control of steer and drive to push up adding right drive and stop steering off the turn!!!
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Post by mchizy on May 13, 2015 20:39:25 GMT -6
Well Champ spent most of the AFTERNOON setting up to your old school was 600# lf ft 650 rt now 550 lf 650 rt
rear is 225 lf 200 rt 1.25 in lower lf ft 1/2" lower left rear I stringed rear end in was from grease zerk ft 1 3/4" further back didn't know I had that much steer. rt now 0 lower links lf 6deg rt 8deg j bar was 9"of rake lower pinion hole now 4" rake still in lower hole on pinion will scale tomorrow I also added 140# lead all I had to low left car sure sits low on left scared will have 60 % left will know tomorrow hope I don't end up with mid corner push on throttle with so much left wt I hope this cures tight in loose off Thanks
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on May 14, 2015 8:46:31 GMT -6
Still a few things in question in you post! Your ft. spring rates are not as I would recommend with Such strong rears --- 850 right ft. or it will be very loose and nose too hard --losing left rear and adding steer to the bars from hell on both sides and will still hike the left rear unless lower bars on left stay below rt. side when rolled!!! YOU BETTER REREAD AND RE-GROUP! When you say stringed the rear -- across the tires???--- A framing square and tape to the ft. lower ball-joint grease fiting will check your lead and you should always start with some (1/8+) as-to assure it turns with any new change in set-ups-- A bit of insurance starting out!
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