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Post by thurston on Jul 1, 2014 20:23:57 GMT -6
cool will do
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Post by numberseven7racer on Jul 3, 2014 10:59:33 GMT -6
There are many things that can affect traction at the rear. Ideally you want equal numbers on both LR and RR coming out of the turn for maximum traction. If you run a 3 link make sure your trailing arms are set to do the same thing meaning both at the same angle. Your 3rd link should be downhill anywhere from 15-25°. If you run a panhard bar on a high angle this helps the car plant more weight on the right rear during the turn.. if you have a good shock and spring set up with a quicker compression speed and a slower rebound speed on the right rear than the left rear this can help keep the weight planted on that RR on corner exit too. If its still loose try putting more cross weight in. You may need to decrease the RR spring rate or stiffen the LR or RF. And its important to look at the comp and rebound rates at the front. Running too slow of rebound amd too high of a compression at the right front will tend to make the nose dive down and pull weight off the left rear also creating a loose condition. Watch your shock travel by placing a grommet at the front. I like to run a really really tight set up and use rear steer as well as stagger to control my car in the turn. We always have enough weight at the front of the car maybe even too much to utilize the power in our engines running a perfectly balanced static set up. Some guys in our class run 300 pounds of bite and that works for them. I like to run a much higher cross weight, high panhard angle, very soft springs and shocks in the back and stiff front end. I run 150 pounds of front spring stagger and I am running 75 pounds of reverse spring stagger at the back. This helps to support the cross weight on the left rear and right front.. and the softer RR allows the chassis to roll onto the right rear under load easier and get the numbers I want on my rear tires. Like I said this setup feels really tight. But it's fast. And theres ways to help the car steer through corners at the rear end of the car without having to sacrifice keeping it really tight and hooking up. A lot of it comes down to driving style though.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 3, 2014 14:07:05 GMT -6
Indexing of the hold point on the axle gives traction and not the bar angle! Closer and most level gives leverage with less lift to muck things up by lifting the right side or down force when getting out of the throttle. This axle angle changing gives ratios of multiplying forces as does the rod angles in a engine to add torque applied when held at a non moving point by not hiking or being increased or decreased in the roll process! Keeping traction on acceleration or when lifting! Keeping both ft. wheels on the ground with a healthy rear percent has been my challenge by reducing horses to a usable factor of ft. steer and right rear drive! If car is level while setting bars then leaned left only to roll to almost level with the track angle, this does have its perks! Trading out drive angles to pounds can be (tit for tat) to hold numbers in check for traction! Excessive neg. caster makes this happen when all else is correct, even when rolled! This helps get the right drive side to rid the push and steer angles you need to handle no matter what, rolled or not! It lets roll out work as well as right drive and pounds increased on the right when nosing with out loosing left rear pounds but gaining right to get more traction than needed! The LLR weight is not just a crutch but an electric wheel chair of getting to the front that needs no recharging! Pardon my usage! Static bite does vary with movement as angles change! 300 may not be 40 when in full roll of transfer to the right side! My 80 may become a negative bite on the scales when rolled by the right side having more weight and rear percent gaining taking the weight off of the right front! Bite should be read by the scales more by rear percent than a fading or gaining cross and the difference or rear pounds side to side! Bad choice of wording for these readings subject to weight transfer at all times! No good indication of traction at all! My right rear gains as does the right rear pounds when nosing by transfer and LLR weight holding rear percent and allowing it to gain at the same time and this before throttle torque is applied to transfer even more rear percent! Bite did the scales say? What about all the extra pounds of air down force and thrust pounds in movement factored in? How many consider these on the scales and what to do with 500-1500 pounds of useful potential in transfer! Sure weight moved to the front but the extra evolved over static pounds of your car leaves plenty to play around with besides just static weight! Never loosing left rear but gaining right side and rear percent out of this total applied onto your car leaves little doubt of pounds of traction in the rear weight when holding and gaining rather than being lifted and tilted to the front to have to push down the track with more wind drag to get it traction back! Anyone getting my drift yet! More lead LLR and less pounds of restriction on top to tote to achieve more than just traction!!!
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Post by ljsracing on Jul 10, 2014 14:33:28 GMT -6
Clamp cars do like more bite but i think your numbers might be a little "misleading" im guessing that is with driver? If its not then your left is high.. And your bite is generally a little high. I would run roughly 52-43 left with about 75lbs of bite WITH NO DRIVER... There is a point when you get too much bite and the car is just plain TIGHT all the way around.. I would also move the LR bar to the top hole..
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 10, 2014 20:23:22 GMT -6
Left drive is ok until you need to turn left while on the throttle or set down to get in or off the corner straight or just drive under the car using left drive in front of you! If clamped and have a spring pull bar or three biscuits the lift of the perches gives traction or just lifts and changes drive angles and steer rates right along with the lift and vice versa when un-lifting! A clamp is at its best if loaded to hook and not raise the car as it was looking so good so-far in the turn going in! Transitions of added steer on or off the throttle is left up to too many factors as to giving free movement anywhere you don't have to! Tightening a spring and adding pounds at the wheel is great to the point of uneven lift or steer changing directions and weight on every wheel!
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Post by thurston on Jul 19, 2014 8:58:10 GMT -6
thanks guys for all your imput. flipflopoo1oo wish you could speak in a less technical manner and I would be better in translating to my application. right now I sort of follow you but not 100%. going into a busy race weekend. my driver has changed his driving style to accomadate this new set up. he now is excelerates through the turns and has picked up corner speed. but now is finding the slightly squirrely down the straights. to say lots of drive but sense of being unstable if you can understand.so that's what I am going to be working on this weekend.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 19, 2014 12:04:00 GMT -6
Never had this but once squirrely but once with a mod that wasn't one of ours! Same car though! The drive angles were too high an the left was higher than the right! Be sure rod angles stay narrowing to the center when raised if running a j-bar and keep its angle to a minimum! Check for conflicting drive angles of more than 2 degrees when straight! If toed in or not out enough if lifting can do the same! we run 5/8-3/4 toed out! If bump steer was set for rear hiking and right nosing and now you are higher on the right ft. it can change toe when straight and lifting in the front! Sorry about the confusing post! Please ask for each point needing attention as to my helping things! So many factors even for me to keep up with! Look for slack by shaking sideways and lifting at different points as to angles! Once correct we have 4-6 degrees on rear steer angles on a 3 bar and neg 2 lt. and pos 4rt. with 8-10 uppers! Low I know but this allows the pull bar to do the traction needed! Pull bar side angles changing too can make it squirrely if no moving to center when lifting! Let me know what you find! Thanks! It shouldn't be lifting more than 2 inches to keep things from squirrely! Check shocks as I use straight valves rear! 3s or 4s straight across with 5 lt ft and 3 right! Its either fighting or something loose somewhere! On limited with metric stock, we have had broken bolts that would not fall out but were held tight setting still! If bushings were drilled before with different set ups with no probles at all being this way would be un-drive-able squirrely with my free-style set-up! Good luck in a simple fix!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 19, 2014 12:31:08 GMT -6
If the left spring is forward and the right is back with right drive higher to match left spring lift traction, you may be fighting right to left with switching traction! If left is hiking more on the ft clamp and changing drive angle there a less bar adjustment angle may help or softer spring may be coil-binding on the throttle! Too strong of a spring would be hiking in stead of just flexing! Varying spring locations and conflicting spring rates ft. to rear and pounds in movement coming and going can be tedious to say the least! Checking compressed heights under throttle is hard to do with so many factors! I like the right side stable and the left hooking softly on about the same pounds of spring! Location and movement does the split or load change of 25 pounds! A shorting of the pull bar to re-cam springs may help tighten right side and loosen left when in the gas! If worse just go the other way but this may show where the fight is to allow a spring change of compression or load if needed!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 19, 2014 12:40:08 GMT -6
Lets not forget what rear steer is happening in this too, jack and measure! Steering one way and drive the other can cause a wobble in rear drive fighting roll out! Ft also when free rolling, lets ball joints and steering flop or wander! The amount of roll out may be a factor if more or less than you need when in a loose centered set-up! Less binding is faster I do believe and has worked great for us through the years! No--flip- flop intended! Shorter bars on one side adds factors that rear their heads quickly once centered and loose! I like a well balanced and even centered bar and spring location car because of such issues when loose centered, free floating setups are used! Lots of factors in any changes made from stock to deal with constantly!!!
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low bite
Jul 21, 2014 20:11:26 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by dstrcto4x on Jul 21, 2014 20:11:26 GMT -6
Ljs, i think you nailed it... my 3 link clamped setup is working really good with them numbers. 53 lft. 75 lbs. Bite with no driver, 55/57 rear. Was having a little trouble with a tight condition on entry untill i put 3/4 inch leed in lft. Rear
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 21, 2014 21:22:44 GMT -6
A simple fix for tight but does it ever close or does it only open more? If so how do you drive under a car getting off the corner with a constant open rear and left drive? I quit running left steer-drive, and headed out to the wall open 30 years ago to be more drivable anywhere on the track! A measure to both the fronts instead of from where you were may tale a different number when raised or rolled! See how much you really have in this fix as to the total good it does! I had a buddy that had his open 2 inches and still would not turn! A few rounds down raising both the on left side and he was in the infield when he turned! He then went closed to tighten it back and be drivable! 4 rounds on the left ft. or rear changes lots of tight factors to loose ones! Thirty at last count on our setup!
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Post by thurston on Aug 25, 2014 20:15:28 GMT -6
hey guys, jus want to let you all know that I have been working this this new way and have realized actually how much this really is working. car hasn't finished no less then a top five foe the last few. learning more every day! really wished had had this push to learn years ago. driver feels better and more confidant with the car in the corner and is not afraid to get in the throttle going in!! for those that can use the info USE IT!!!
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Post by thurston on Aug 25, 2014 20:36:23 GMT -6
will be going back to 4 link and adding angle and a in dry will leave left in neutral position. last week had z linc on and was not getting to much load on right. maintained fee through corner and able to exellerate through it also lightly and still had good exit but could be better. last week also was more then 25 to the right without driver. works well but car was hanging out to the right as if to be loose but driver says it was not spinning and planting just seemed like it wanted to steer out there. so this week want to 4 link it and see about getting more right drive to straighten it out on exit. see you next week!!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Sept 6, 2014 14:04:40 GMT -6
We all are on your side and would like to hear more about your findings, most are not willing to report good or bad in fear of helping the other guy get farther ahead!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Sept 6, 2014 14:13:29 GMT -6
Do you still call it low bite? Not all in the numbers but hooked by the transfer and a better rear percentage! Is it more drivable or what? Can you stand in it all the way yet and keep both ft. wheels on the track?
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