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Post by digger on Nov 23, 2014 7:14:02 GMT -6
I am currently running a 3 link, 2 link as some call it. My swedge tube lengths are 13" center of heim to heim. The car jumps on the bars and drives off hard but has a crazy amount of rearsteer. Are the rods too short or could I move the RR forwarded to compensate for the loose roll steer?
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 23, 2014 11:23:32 GMT -6
You have to look at the bars as GODs so to speak as setting the laws and ruling the kingdoms of steer, bite, and thrust angle drive! The j-bar is the Trojan horse! Invasive at best! Calm it all back! Start with the jump and then roll factors adding to bar angles changing thrust angles to add even more steer! How open is your rear to start with? If working you may zero it out first! 6-8 degrees on the steering and 3-5 on the j-bar! It would take all the stats to see just where you are now to be able to see if one spring or shock is going to hinder a fix! Many use the open-ness to get in the corner! Close it up and see how well it turns going in! If by chance it still turns you may want to limit roll effects or lower bars! If it won't still turn you can look at increasing j-bar depending where it is now or open it back and loose some roll with less j-bar angle! Give me more info and maybe we can tell where to start first!
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Post by digger on Nov 23, 2014 11:41:06 GMT -6
I run a rear Panhard bar because of rules. I have a 200 in the lr/175 in the rr. The left bar is at 15 degrees uphill to the chassis. The right is 5 uphill to chassis. I run the rr 3/8 of an inch shorter then the left. That helped going in but as soon as I pick the throttle up it gets drive off but feels like it is hanging the rr out. Feels like the lr is pulling the wheelbase shorter on that side and makes it drive with the rear hung out.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 23, 2014 12:14:31 GMT -6
Exactly!! Too much left and not enough right angle! Is it leaned right or left and what ft. springs??? You want enough to hook both rears but more even! Try more of a close balance of all settings! Most all are too radical in trying too hard! Start by closing the rear to zero if it needs more you can as long as you can get in the corner! I ran 4-6 left and 6-8 right with the rear closed 3/8 with very little roll-out, but it takes other things to make that work correctly! Pounds at lt. rear corner to drag it around when lifting!
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Post by digger on Nov 23, 2014 14:18:03 GMT -6
Running a 900 rf and a 850lf with 54.2% left side 55.2 % rear with 2850 total wt. I run just a basic shock package with gas all the way around. 5's on the front. 4 on rr and 3 on lr. Camaro clip car. Rf 5 1/2" lf 5 rr 6 1/2. Run anywhere from 90 to 110 lbs of bite. Panhard bar is 4 degrees down to rearend mount. Top link has quikcar yellow biscuits and is 18 degrees down to chassis. Top bar is 29" long. No shock on top.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 23, 2014 21:04:41 GMT -6
Try a 700 on the left ft. with it preloaded with 100-200 more pounds than on the 900 right! This will give easier nosing not having all the load of the cross on the right ft. by adding weight(150lbs. of lead) to the left rear! Drop the left side bar angle and raise the right 2 degrees higher than the left! Square the rear! 6-8 degrees on the bars works fine for us with 60-80 lbs. of left rear! This should let things all even out when rolled to be straighter and faster while most drivable in traffic! Put a 3-3 shock on the right front to let it nose and plant the right rear quickly by transferring the weight from the right ft. to the loaded left to the right rear by switching up the cross when lifting the throttle! Lean it one inch left at frame behind the ft. wheels and 1/2-3/4" left on the rear! toe it out 1/2 to 5/8"! This should be a whole new drivable car that still hooks up! Add caster-- (move both upper ball joints to the rear)6-10 degrees! This will let it steer both ends of the car and transfer pounds as needed for added control by the driver! 53-54 left and cross is fine! Rear percentage should be 58 plus! Quite a change but give it a go! It still wins!--- or just close your rear and drop the left bar some!
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Post by digger on Nov 23, 2014 21:31:25 GMT -6
Thanks for the info.
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75t
Pit Crew
Posts: 7 
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Post by 75t on Nov 25, 2014 15:10:19 GMT -6
If you are wanting the LF 100-200 pounds heavier and only running 60-80 pounds of bite how do you end up with 54 cross in the car or am I missing something? Just asking but otherwise I love the info
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 26, 2014 5:39:55 GMT -6
The added weight to the left and rear of up to 150 pounds is tipping the weight over! The right ft. is still loaded but the compressed height and pounds are now less to allow more nose travel with out loosing left rear while gaining right! Being that now the right rear is preloaded also, it is holding the left ft. pounds also increasing left and rear percentages! The weight placement to added left rear also increased left by easing the right ft.poundage! Tipping the balance of the cross to the left rear also adds more left!!! All this working together gives better quickness and load in the ease of transfer to hook it up and plant the right rear to be able to turn on a dime!Good question! Tells me some-one is paying attention! Battery location on left rear helps too! Ask all you need!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 26, 2014 8:16:24 GMT -6
I just lost my last two post to thin air! Funny as it was about lead verses air! As thin air is easier moved I see its point in loss and maybe this one will get there unscathed! Its more about the closing of the air from behind having something to push against than the down-force after the vacuum and by adding the lead to achieve way more than just rear weight in pounds! Another tuning spot and let me assure you that it is not a fine tune but a rich one in pounds of drag and load of weight toted! Its like putting a board under your battery on concrete! It depends on the grain in the wood working as a diode or not and witch way the board is turned over and to the north or not, the cut angles on the ends and the moons gravity as well as the earth's to the gravity in the charge and how good the lead and capacity of the battery is! Its not brain surgery but it helps to have all the facts you can when making winning decisions in life!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 26, 2014 8:47:15 GMT -6
Most would still rather think we had to cheat to be that fast and win so much instead of having to admit what they missed out on in school! Books are still available!!! Is there a racecar trivia game on dirt car set-ups! WHO WANTS ONE FOR CHRISTMAS? Next question-- Was you good or bad this year? Did you purposely spin anyone out including your-self? Did you rub anyone the wrong way? Did you kiss the trophy girls all the same! Did you hit anyone with your trophy? Did you come home with the reds or a checkered past? Just give thanks for having another shot of getting it right! TURKEY UP AND PIE DOWN!
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Post by digger on Nov 26, 2014 18:19:38 GMT -6
Man you lost me on that stuff.  ? |
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 27, 2014 0:47:05 GMT -6
Stuff--- Tomorrow is the day for that! Not wanting to loose anyone! Just jump in and start keeping me simple and to the point! Just look at it as being stuck and spinning on to of the ground! If the left is spinning get some one to stand on that side of the rear bumper to do the most good! If sitting in the cab the weight is the same but little transfer is working! The extra weight moves more of the trucks weight to the rear by changing the balance load to the rear for traction!----- Or was it the polarity of the boards design that tripped you up! You can saw a log and make good or bad lumber by design of the way the grain runs! The laminated design of mother nature is for strength! Standing up or laying down it has to be sawed to fit the need and nailed by design of how it was sawed or it warps up bad and gives easily under load! As for energy, it takes the easiest path! If the grain is flat it blocks flow! If congruent, it passes threw, and if cupped gives direction like an umbrella! If you want it to shed water, you had best turn the umbrella in the grain up! The same goes for sunshine if standing or it will pull the nails when it dries! Even roasting a turkey has a certain order to it as direction of turn and movement to be correct but its hard to mess up sweet potato pie unless you add milk before you slice it!!! Race cars are like that too! A few straight lines and curves out of the pan that get the juices flowing in the right direction so as not to be board in the straights of it all by the load transferred! I plan on gaining a little more rear percent tomorrow no matter how board I get!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 27, 2014 1:29:38 GMT -6
Think of the balance of the X as having only one point of movement, where the lines cross! Now put a + sign over the top with the same center pivot! Think of it being a teeter totter with larger kids on the rear by cutting off the rear and shorting the distance you now still have balance! Add the 100- 200 to the left front and left rear and the balance is now upset by ft. leverage! More has to be shortened off the rear of the X and the + with the now tremendous left side! So the left side is wacked off and almost all the left rear of both the X and the + is now gone with the center pivot at the left rear wheel! This is now the hub of all transfer in the balance of the car! The X and + have had a whisker trim on the left and rear to balance the weight load! This has the cross and moment center in a steady spot instead of running rampant as the car moves and the left rear is now the center hub! Every movement pivots here but it needs to be steady and unchanging to give control to all else! This is why I use the nose and right side movement to steer instead of hiking the left rear! I know it is not on the spot but a closer than before of the two that improves chassis functions!!!
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Post by digger on Dec 2, 2014 21:01:45 GMT -6
Ok,I've been doing some testing in the shop with the whole bar angle, rear steer deal. And based on what you said I've put some of it to the test and wow! Talk about rear steer gained and lost with bar angles! At one point the right side gained as much a 1 and 5/8 inch and with a few changes in right rear bar angle and LR longer w/b almost all can be taken out but maintain the LR bar angle. Basically with the right side at 3 degrees more then the left it seems in theory that left rear drive can be maintained and almost all rear steer can be eliminated for a more stable feeling car.
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