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Post by thurston on Jun 25, 2014 0:07:51 GMT -6
hey guys! people have been trying to get me to go to this less bite deal. the only issue is that no one is helping me out with the knowledge that goes with it. so I am asking if someone can help me out a bit with some info. like what combination to use coils and percentages stagger. you know just some regular info. I don't mind trying stuff but only if I have the info with it. I would really appreciate the help thanks. if it helps I am on a clamped car.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 25, 2014 0:50:36 GMT -6
What kind of problem are you having that comes with too much bite? We will need more info!
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Post by thurston on Jun 25, 2014 18:31:51 GMT -6
generaly have been running about 160 to 180. We have been dealing with tight in and tight on excelaration all before the center of corner. was running lf 650 rf 667 lr 225 rr 175. standard medium shock package. Running left at 55%, rear at 56% and cross is where bite is generally about 53% to 54%. 1 inch stagger in front and 4 in rear. full tank of fuel at 22 gallons. tall slim tam tank in center of tail. bars in neutral in a 3 hole system. panhard at center of pinion with a single mount high on chassis about 8 inch diff. use a pull bar about 18n inch with a progressive 600-1200. Ls caster 1+ camber 4-, Rs caster4+ camber4-. quarter tow out.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 25, 2014 19:18:35 GMT -6
Using a compressed 100-200 weaker left ft. ready to help roll than uncompressed right ready to compress is what lets it nose and increase the cross! However at close coil bind on the left front, it sends weight across the cross also to plant the right rear just by lifting with a straight 5 left and 3 rt. shock! Instant traction and planted going in and it rolled and hiked lt. rear a bit in this process to start steering! AND you haven't even turned the wheel yet! When ever you do if needed it would be to drive hooked and under power, higher or lower as with it leaned left to start with ,it is now rolled to level and is balanced pound wise per wheel! the extreme caster has no problem transferring weight to either side to steer front and rear at the same time to drive through traffic in the turn! This all because of weight placement of low left and rear! A 25 split ,stronger left rear! Threes or fours for shocks work fine on the rear! 60-80 lt. rear is a good start but it gains as does the right in transfer to 200lbs! Bars 6 left, 8 right has plenty of steer and bite with crosses and transfer! Rear closed 3/8"! It will open quickly! Roll out can now do its job correctly and turning either way or traction is not a problem with detune in the motor for 3 car lengths and a healthy 61-63 rear present! Adding rear weight if used to hook a car will never slow it down if placed low left and rear! The traction gained out weighs sling factors as it is now at the center of the cars pivot point in this set-up!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 25, 2014 19:38:22 GMT -6
Percentages 51-53 are fine except for rear to make it work! If staying close to what you have now a 50-75 stronger lt. ft. and a rear swap would serve a better purpose on a tall j-bar car at bottom of pinion with a 5-7 inch gain to loosen! Left drive can increase too much when rolled but may need to be higher before leaning the car left from level! You may need 20 lbs right rear depending on driver weight! This is W/O driver! Should go to 40-60 left with driver! The weaker left will stop the hiking! Drive angles hooks the car 8-10 left and 4-6 left! A more balanced car reacts easier to caster changes!
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Post by thurston on Jun 25, 2014 22:19:33 GMT -6
ok thanks man will keep this in mind while I am tuning this thing. just trying the no bite right now. the other I will try if I go back.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 25, 2014 22:42:48 GMT -6
Upper ball joints to the rear helps roll or makes it come back! Get a four way (as a spindle example of both sides) and lean it to the rear and see the wheels move up to drop or down to lift the corners and transfer weight in the steering process to handle better!
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Deleted
Deleted Member
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Post by Deleted on Jun 28, 2014 13:09:01 GMT -6
I believe the Zero Bite is more of a spring behind deal. The clamped cars always run more bite.
Dave
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 28, 2014 13:51:41 GMT -6
A balanced rear that progressively bites with spring movement and bar angles of forward bite when torque is applied! It must nose hard on the right ft. not to make the cross go crazy! Left rear drag of steer going in to aide turning might be tricky! Springs on the both rears would need to be in front with little perch movement right or left (if in use of opposite) indexing and less pull bar movement! Clamped or not! Dropping the right side before the left would take a stiffer left shock to hold poundage coming down for drag steer! I can see this working starting at even traction! Spring locations may have the cross lt. ft. to rt. rear balanced to hold right rear while gaining left rear! The variation of springs locations reversed to get there! Its closely reversed to what we run with 40-80 bite! We are talking left turns and horses so a little extra starting out doesn't hurt!
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Post by thurston on Jun 29, 2014 17:21:31 GMT -6
well just want to say that I tried the no bite deal this weekend. the car was extremely loose all over. not concerned with entry to much. but the rest of the night carried as is. we were loose all over finished 2nd in heat. we were good just looking for forward drive off so we shortened right bars two turns happy but moved right lower bar down one hole. ran dash finished fourth. they put water down and we had moisture for about 8 of 25 laps. we had just taken out a half inch of stagger and moved bars to dry. now as I was saying the car was fast for about 8 laps then it dropped off fast and had to slow down and move to bottom. driver says car is good but would like to tighten up a little on entry a bit and says drive is good off but could be better.
now is the answer to add bite or make other adjustements to make this better. I am old school and trying to learn what these young kids are doing. old dogs trying to learn new tricks.
we finished a distant third place after taking an early lead in the feature. not bad but could always be better.
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Post by thurston on Jun 29, 2014 17:34:47 GMT -6
now with my other set up is the same but bite at 180 with driver.but with this we are tight on entry and through center and really tight on ecellaration and then really loose off exit. could it be that I am searching only for this magical number that seems so far away?
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 29, 2014 21:39:20 GMT -6
So many adjustments, each changing 20 or more things in a set-up ! They are some good and some bad as for as what is happening to what is affected! I am the old dog trying to teach these young pups how to win! The things now were here 30 years ago when we got smart and went from tenth to wining most of the time! Bite has two factors on the scales combined, cross factors and left rear! Are you reading bite off the scales or is that just left rear? The right rear pulls too if you need traction! The amount is compromised by left rear lifting the car! I hold the left as set and increase right drive and use right steer as not going against the flow of things like too much added steer when already rolled to the correct spot! Right drive evens out the drive while pushing the car left with roll-out! It pushes the right side up to stop steering to get off straight! Left drive pushes right! Adds unneeded steer! Lifts off the right drive! It never worked as well for us as to trading drivability for less traction in the transitions or transfer of weights! You are varying your magic number by too much left drive lifting and changing pounds on every wheel! Planting the right side for right drive is the key to turning under power! This can be done just by lifting! No waiting on the roll to have right side bite! The cross and spring location and compression works with your shocks to time and transfer the momentum to the right rear without unloading the left rear but gaining right! The bite and steer bars or evened out when rolled, thus even traction and equal lift and equal bite added! I can't tell you its easier to get there but it has less ills and more forward drive and drive-ability! I have applied this to our 3 and 4 bar cars, swing arm, clamped, fifth arm, J-bar all won quickly! It works on all tracks with out changes! If tacky and rolls more it steers more! Try reading my other post to help get to a better understanding of why this works! The cross holds the bite on the left rear as well as right but if increasing during acceleration you make it harder to get right side bite! You are loosing tension off of the left front spring to rely on static falling over to control right side traction! If lifting the left front in the air to get a balance across the rear as a tricycle, why not have more bite with spring tension through the cross?
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jun 29, 2014 21:54:30 GMT -6
To hold the rear left down and move the cross and moment center to the left rear you will need a healthy rear percent and left rear pounds with-out the cross factor being high! Left rear with compressed heights correct everywhere, with the right ft. front unloaded as to ease steer and transfer of pounds to right rear from a loaded lt. ft. through the cross when nosed! They just don't see it happening but when they do, more people will be watching the races! It will be ON...
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Post by thurston on Jun 30, 2014 20:33:14 GMT -6
thank you very much. never have the words from someone ever been burnt so deep into my mind. this has taken all the questions and sceptecisim. don't think I got that word right! lol. anyways you summed it up very quikly for me in a just a few words. these are the words I have been looking foe for a long time. I now can see and visualise the things you speak of. I like to tell those around me that I have always set my cars to what I am reading and using the driver info to second my changes. I have grown up around these race cars and seen them progress but only crewchief now for about ten years now. I just feel that I lost my way in just the last two years being plagued with engine troubles and feel that I haven't had my heads in the game.
in short! thank you it all is making more sense to me now then it has ever. thanks
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Jul 1, 2014 7:36:52 GMT -6
Now we can work on, --NO--- Fix you engine and create more horses in that process! I think maybe one on one messaging if you don't want them to get that figured out too! I don't think many ever will as free stuff is cheap and not worth much in this resale world of thoughts! Idle them up boys is my best easy tip! Corner speed will improve and the engines lives longer without the back drag of too much gear! You will need to be tighter with a looser car and even a three wheel brake to make it slow and turn! You will be faster but under control of fast takes LLR weight!
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