|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 3, 2014 8:18:42 GMT -6
Common country boy know how! Now that some one has the outlook of how simple things can be, lets look at how to get rear percent and traction with the least added weight! Air down force is pounds you have to tote plus the drag of added restriction! Anywhere there is leverage used there is an angle! Finding the correct ones and holding them to do the job intended with out compromise requires less movement and some thought as well! I will try again to simplify! The closer the pull bar to the center of the rear axle the more leverage it has! The greater the back angle on the diff. bracket the more angle of thrust applied as gear ratio as it closes with movement! A solid pull bar and a most level pull bar angle gives little lift to change said angle! Being at a higher leverage point pulling, it can transfer more weight to the rear when pull is applied with more force! The closing of an acute angle gives rise to obtuse thinking! By lowering the steering bars at the chassis this too adds transfer as does the longer bars used to increase pivot angle of transfer location! Taking in total knowledge of the indexing of the lower diff. mounts as well to achieve max traction! Just having rear percent is not enough to transfer properly but by the weight holding it down, it provides a few angle changes and thrust factors that help to hook most any chassis! The total placement of added weight is more suited to handling than hooking the chassis in my usage! Added traction is just a bonus for paying attention to details!!!
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 3, 2014 8:59:26 GMT -6
Ok,I've been doing some testing in the shop with the whole bar angle, rear steer deal. And based on what you said I've put some of it to the test and wow! Talk about rear steer gained and lost with bar angles! At one point the right side gained as much a 1 and 5/8 inch and with a few changes in right rear bar angle and LR longer w/b almost all can be taken out but maintain the LR bar angle. Basically with the right side at 3 degrees more then the left it seems in theory that left rear drive can be maintained and almost all rear steer can be eliminated for a more stable feeling car. Now that I have your attention , throw out the steering bars and make it turn with out them with the rear closed 3/8 of an inch!!! How-- ----with a little roll out if working with the right side pounds applied! Back drag of holding enough left rear when lifting to pull it left into the turn!!! By having enough weight on both ft. wheels to force ft. travel when turned!!! By right drive of transferred pounds to the right rear by correct spring and shock placement when on the throttle!!! By tilting the weight by extreme caster to plant and hold the right side traction of both ft. and rear tires!!! Just consider a little added steer a complete bonus in the scheme of obtaining rear traction as it is not needed to turn in the first place even with the rear closed a bit!!! You may now start to see some added drivability factors come to light in passing any time or place you please if your horses are put to good use in the same light as traction angles inside your next engine build! No need to loose or gain but just give me steady as to build upon a concept of enlightenment! A bit over the top??? Just think of the advantages and weigh them out in horse pounds of thrust applied to the rear if the ft. pull bar mount is never changed as the car noses, rolls and hooks as pre-set to do!!! A small down angle when rolling over by holding the left rear down and dropping the right to steer may allow enough cushion with more weight applied to hold fast the main traction pulling point! Be very sure it is secure as is the bar and diff. bracket or it will rip it right off with all the torque you have been letting slip away!!! Not to worry about the added weight to strengthen as it is rear present well needed!!!
|
|
|
Post by siberhusky0 on Dec 4, 2014 19:26:29 GMT -6
Had a similar issue except didn't want to hook up & when it did, the more power added the harder the rear wanted to swap ends until off the gas. Just prior to this issue with it had got tagged pretty good & replaced J-bar R top A arm, tie rod/heims, R ball joints, shocks etc. Not all due getting hit, just made it harder to figure out the handling. 3 point, pull bar with biscuit/shock above & stock trailing arms. Ended up moving a hole on R trailing arm about 7/16" to shorten up R wheel base. Before next season ill have adjustable arms in length and angle which brings up a question. Has any one had, or have seen a R lower control arm that's like a biscuit type pull bar for rear steering? (shortens with torque when pinion rotates) I heard this sometime ago but haven't found any info.
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 4, 2014 20:52:07 GMT -6
YEP ---- It worked great! You probably wont find anything as it breaks all the left side is king rules! I was not hiking the left any and had a solid low mounted pull bar that was almost level as to hold pinion angle! I ground a few threads off the ft. as it bumped to be a adjustable stop! The 4 pieces just screw together and 3 jam nuts! No roll needed or bar angle extremes! 4 left and 6 right for other reasons! It was set at zero but ran 3/8 closed but opened to 1/2 open with braking! All settings fully adjustable with no slack! 3 link! Added a trio left link with a chain with turnbuckle to set it to hook! (A locked birdcage sort with a chain for the top link hooked to the same ft. spot). It slid over the axle and turned and locked on with the lower bar mount using two 1/4 inch plates and spacers! No welding! You never saw the left side lift but the tire would flatten out!
|
|
|
Post by siberhusky0 on Dec 5, 2014 0:03:51 GMT -6
Whats you thought on using this as a right trailing arm to pull the rear end square under power? If the tube is aluminum, would replace it with steel
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 5, 2014 14:41:55 GMT -6
Steel if your going to do it but really no need to if you think of all the advantages of the right side bar being higher, it works the same way plus much more if not hiking the left rear!
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 6, 2014 1:37:27 GMT -6
The bars also work like setting up floating brake mounting angles! They do more than just steer as drag and thrust comes into play! More instant steer with added roll when on or off the throttle or brake to plant or unload or to add right drive even when rolled if the right stays ahead of the left in angle! This is directly affected by amount of roll by where and variations! Indexing of lower mounts and bar lengths along with pull bar give and pinion angle change lead too! Be sure to get the big picture of any movement! A little all in the right places can do wonders for set-ups forgotten in the past from lack of knowing geometry! Long bars work better with my set-up as t moves the ft. mounts farther under the traction pivot of the car making it easier for the pull bar to pull the weight over them with a more level, shorter pull bar! The whole concept of traction in chassis to set-up to get traction needs to be addressed if you are hurting from lack of traction! Steering bar angles are just that and though they do help thrust-wise, this should be a given by the correct placement and not used as a loss for lack of answers to what you need to get more bite!!! The same applies to the j-bar setting! I agree most anything will help traction if lacking by design but at what price to the rest!
|
|
|
Post by digger on Dec 10, 2014 12:06:15 GMT -6
I think the hardest thing to do is balance a 3 link to where it turns good in traffic and still maintains forward drive. To get a car free enough to where you actually drive it through the corner instead of sliding it to the middle and hammering on it you have to free it up. By doing so your take cross out (or bite). Then a lot of folks add bar angle to get the drive off which introduces rear steer even under throttle on the straights. I've seen cars begin to come off the bars going into a corner and actually swap lanes! There is a very fine line to all this balancing act and to me it seems a lot easier to just run a stock 4 link or leaf springs.
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 10, 2014 20:21:59 GMT -6
This is true if not running the right side bar a bit higher or too much j-bar angle! We have got it down pat and out ran the 4 bars first night out mid season with a new 3 link in modified! The Quest for more traction with out adding weight to the left rear in lead but by jacking it in and throwing all else out of whack has become rampant! The weight we add helps to hold left rear and sets preloads to our spring and shock package! We have ran them all through the years with good service but never had to lift the left rear to win. Its not really a balance but just getting the transfer to make up the right side traction with thrust angle with out losing any left rear! Its pretty much the same on any chassis as far as it working with springs and shocks! Its the left side radical that gets in the way by moving things too much! It drives like its stock with the low bar angles and no extremes except for caster to make it all work easily! I let the right side do all the work and the left stays hooked! No need to get up on any bars or slide! It steers all four wheels from the use of extra caster twisting the frame to change bar angles! No roll even needed to change pounds to the right side! It plants both right side tires just by lifting and is holding before you turn and so it does quickly! Its leaned left to start with so as the right comes down it levels out, steers and has equal bar angles as not to upset a good thing once rolled! Can you see the advantage in drivability and traction while in the turn! Being it has rolled to a even setting the caster can maneuver it in either direction and not loose traction!
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 11, 2014 8:18:23 GMT -6
Maybe its a ease of pivot points that seems to give free motion to the chassis! Weight placement to move the moment and cross points to be more in the same area to ease motion! Both centers seem to be close to the right edge of the seat! I really have never wasted my time on such other than knowing such things exist and if having issues could be the problem! Its like a lot of terms that move constantly and should be understood as to their workings but control of such with it floating just needs a good general area within a workable range like all the rest! If a tire looks low, it probably is or over loaded! If you take away all the off sets and extreme angles to get to the heart of chassis functions you will find the spring problem and then the shock choice will be easy to see! Put the bars in the same holes with the chassis level with the rear square! Lean it left and see what happens! Look at stock steering and lean it left and see what happens! You may see the bar and steering angles needed to be correct once rolled back to level! A lot of things can be easier found by reversing travel! Steer when lifting and wheel drag is easy if you don't loose left rear in the process and the right bar steers and pulls the right side down in the process! Can you see it yet?
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 11, 2014 8:32:55 GMT -6
I think the hardest thing to do is balance a 3 link to where it turns good in traffic and still maintains forward drive. To get a car free enough to where you actually drive it through the corner instead of sliding it to the middle and hammering on it you have to free it up. By doing so your take cross out (or bite). Then a lot of folks add bar angle to get the drive off which introduces rear steer even under throttle on the straights. I've seen cars begin to come off the bars going into a corner and actually swap lanes! There is a very fine line to all this balancing act and to me it seems a lot easier to just run a stock 4 link or leaf springs. Sounds like you have a good handle on what is happening on the left! Just apply that same knowledge to the right and add lead weight to the left rear to make it stick and free the rest up with better transfer! The right side does the job with natural movements with no help needed from the left side bar, j-bar or off sets that throw things around! 4-6 degree gets it done in the steer department and lift is minimal to hold traction angles! Transfer and thrust does the rest!
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 11, 2014 8:39:56 GMT -6
Man you lost me on that stuff. ? You are not lost you just needed the lights turned on. Good to have another on the same page with me! I try to help all I can so hang in there !
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 11, 2014 9:02:35 GMT -6
I ran my all cars with the rear closed and turned on a dime by making the left rear the pivot point of steer! No slide needed! It looked more like a check mark when totally planted on the right side by throttle lifting! Then using right drive to push it around the turn! Holding left rear to drag it left helps the turning process! Appling all the things used in other classes through the years makes roll out a bit senseless! We have won many running reverse stager! Most have every advantage in steer and at the cost of traction and handling! Finding the free roll point of a j- bar is key to a free chassis! Some times close is all you get until moving the rest to free the whole car! 3-5 inches and one hole of the bottom is usually close once you stop using it for other reasons than to hold the rear centered under the chassis!!!
|
|
|
Post by digger on Dec 11, 2014 10:47:44 GMT -6
I'm beginning to see what your talking about. I really won't get to try it until the season starts back but I have been in the shop with it on scales. I've played with moving weight and everything you have discussed. I will say I'm getting a better understanding of it all and look forward to putting it to use!
|
|
|
Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 11, 2014 19:48:29 GMT -6
I have never made a lap except in my head but I have watched a few! A good feeling to help somebody win or get them on the right side of understanding it better! Ask all you have doubts about and I'll try to give my 2 cents worth!
|
|