55v
Pit Crew
Posts: 3 
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Post by 55v on Nov 30, 2014 17:02:07 GMT -6
Does anybody have any experience running a stock Ford 302 block in IMCA Sport Mod? We are thinking about a .030 over 302 (306cid), stock 302 block. The car will be chip limited to 6300rpm. I can use an aftermarket steel crank, scat I beam rods and forged pistons but the rules prohibit after market or Ford racing blocks. I am questioning whether the stock block will hold up. The combination should put out 340-350hp. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. |
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Nov 30, 2014 18:49:15 GMT -6
Not up on Fords but if cubes are not limited I have built 351 stock engines that seem to be of good power! The free flow is what any block needs to not stress out the bottom end! Most Fords can't stand the added piston clearance that the Chevy can but other than that some may stroke them to get more! Small cubes needs more RPMS to compete in most cases! Very few in our 35 years went with Ford because of cost of parts! Most base line .030-.060 350s are 400-430 horses before my tune! If there is a option, go for the cubes! Go for the compression if lack of cubes or RPMS unless limited there too! Heads would be a factor also as limitations go! No good answers from a Chevy man or choices form a Ford!
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55v
Pit Crew
Posts: 3
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Post by 55v on Nov 30, 2014 19:42:40 GMT -6
We are limited to 9.1 compression, no strokers and 500cfm 2bbl carb. I was planning on Windsor Jr heads which are legal. Many are running a 602 crate 350 that is around 350-375hp. The Fords can run a max of 364ci but the 302 is 125lbs lighter than the SBC and that would seam to be an advantage as is the low cost of parts for the 302. I could also go with a 351w and not have any worries about the block in this class. Our local track tends to be very slick by the feature and there have been a few guys show up with 302 Fords and run very well. I'm just concerned about durability of the 302 block. I've had a lot of experience building stroked 460 Fords for truck pulling but my son decided to go sport mod racing so I'm looking for input regarding building him a small block Ford.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 1, 2014 10:34:20 GMT -6
Not to worry about the 351 and all the horses you can find! Hooking up is no problem if you have read all my post on dropping power with lower timing and more fuel for only enough time to make it move as it picks up speed while on the floor in 3 car lengths you are hauling ass off that slick exit corner! It does require a bit of well placed lead L,L&R to give about 20 ways of hooking a fighting chance to work properly! Most just see lead as dead weight but I can assure you mine is very alive and working hard to win on any track! Keeping the horses and dropping the torque that comes back smoothly keeps you hooked as it gains speed and timing! The lead is like a counter balance to insure preloads of all 4 springs and a greater transfer of weight to the rear when not hiking up and sending it elsewhere! Yes I understand the concept of moving the rear axle forward and have ran that an won also but it had too many cons to deal with when old school made it easier with none unless you figure the lead that cures most ills as a single con with 19 pros attached! The only crate motor barrowed was the smaller and it won first night out with my carb, dist. and timing tune by ear! Some times its the outside tune that wins, I was surprised but the car handled flawlessly also to make up the time they lost in set-ups! Lighter in the front is not the same as heavier in the rear! The springs have to react to loads to transfer pounds! Placement is everything as to holding both crosses at bay to get a quick and precise transfer for handling, planting the right side and hooking all in a few pounds of lead! If the engine is that much lighter you may need to slide it rt. or lt. to make the springs happy! It will effect the balance of power between the spring variations corner to corner and side to side moving the cross lines and moment centers, all six of them!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 1, 2014 11:13:16 GMT -6
Many think racing fuel makes them faster and it may if all else conforms but the low compression engines run best on the correct octane and timing combo! The amount of vacuum and cam specs are a bit different in fords than Chevys I am sure to get the cooling effects to make a few more horses! I have heard it said that a ford would not run until the temps got up for some reason! Low compression, too much fuel or octane, I can see expansion helping or small runners producing to much velocity I suppose, any thoughts there OR recommended degrees on ford engines to get more horses out??? I run stock .001 rods and .002 mains with.006 on tall pistons, Ford tends to crack skirts at .006 and .004 is not to loose but if short skirts .003 is a bit tight for racing so I go Chevy and run more to be cooler to get the horses also! Its not Ford or Chevy with me but I look at all the pros and cons as to horses! I can always dump a hundred or two if needed or just leave them hoofing and drop the torque or just add a few more pounds to the left rear with lead and keep a little more moving faster! Once your set-up is faster it is not so hard to hook a moving mass!!!
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55v
Pit Crew
Posts: 3
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Post by 55v on Dec 1, 2014 17:49:28 GMT -6
Thank you sir.
What you are saying makes sense, it's really very similar in truck pulling. weight distribution and setup will beat horsepower nearly every time. I like the idea of verying the tune of the engine to adjust for track conditions. I've done the same thing with my pulling engines to good success. I may figure this dirt racing thing out yet! We have a successful racer from our local track that will be helping us out with setting up the car so that should help as well. I talked to the track owner and he'll let us rent the track for a day this spring so my son can get some wheel time without worrying about other cars. My main concern is to give my son a reliable and competitive power plant so he can focus on learning to set up and drive the car. I'll go with the 351W. My plan will be to go with an aftermarket steel crank, I beam rods and forged pistons, the Windsor jr heads with roller rockers and chip it for 6300 - 6500rpms. All of which is allowed in this class Then I'll work on getting it tuned. I know a Ford guy who has been running this setup with much success and he said he'll give me some suggestions on cam timing.
Thanks for the advice!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 2, 2014 10:39:21 GMT -6
Cam timing and specs can change a lot by the time it gets to the actual valve numbers! My thought process is all I ever had to tune with as to a good start! I go for wider ranges of adjustments as I do in set-ups! I choose a larger cam than needed and de-tune the geometry to increase the quickness of opening the valves rather than the duration interfering with overlap! On Chevys I have found reversion to be the culprit in most cases of being tight to easily with smaller cams! Push rod length may not be easily changed with roller tips having to stay atop the valve if wanting to improve with geometry! Hyd. or solid cam? The only time I run roller rockers is because of spring pressure and not over 120lbs. on exhaust or 90lbs. on the intake if only turning 6500 RPMs. they are of no help other than stem wear! The vacuum makes up the added seat pressure against which it has to open! Vacuum rule or not? I like a 110 lobe separation and no lower! It will be more before I get finished tinkering with fate! I too have a Winning Ford guy I shall question a bit! A older fart than I who still has his wits on every subject in town today! We sit for hours in his shop by the heater to discuss what ticks today and how the change came about! When Mr. Isky speaks of (ONLY A COUNTRY BOY COULD COME UP WITH THIS OR FIGURE THIS OUT!) I think of him and so did he I am sure! Read up on some of his out look in degree-ing cams! This guy tested a lot of his cams for him back in the day to help get us where we are today! A drop everything and us talk for 6 hours kind of guy! There may be a coffee brake or two but no bull anytime!!!! Hard to find friends like that in our world of racing today with so much in common with the gap between us Ford, Chevy, and years! I figure its our good nature and willingness to learn that keeps us moving faster! Study hard and we will hash it all out until you get there! Don't forget to bring the driver in on this! Its his education as well but some never have to know to win! Don't tell him that skills are not needed as most need the ego to compete! Thinking about such on the track in set-ups can hinder response times! I prefer the innocence to shoulda, coulda, woulda, in drivers! Get his friends or gals involved to explain things he might have missed! Even a bad or wrong opinion adds thought to the process of correction! No stupid questions have I ever heard that didn't give some insight to something or someone! I want to here them all as it makes me question my own theories!!!!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 16, 2014 9:07:31 GMT -6
Ck your messages!
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on Dec 16, 2014 10:42:34 GMT -6
We are limited to 9.1 compression, no strokers and 500cfm 2bbl carb. I was planning on Windsor Jr heads which are legal. Many are running a 602 crate 350 that is around 350-375hp. The Fords can run a max of 364ci but the 302 is 125lbs lighter than the SBC and that would seam to be an advantage as is the low cost of parts for the 302. I could also go with a 351w and not have any worries about the block in this class. Our local track tends to be very slick by the feature and there have been a few guys show up with 302 Fords and run very well. I'm just concerned about durability of the 302 block. I've had a lot of experience building stroked 460 Fords for truck pulling but my son decided to go sport mod racing so I'm looking for input regarding building him a small block Ford. Still searching for good info on Fords 351w cams! Any lift or vacuum rules? |
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