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Post by s240ka24t on May 13, 2014 9:41:47 GMT -6
Hello all let me first say "Please excuse my ignorance." I have build some bad A$$ import blocks such as my EVO 8 but when it comes to these v8 domestic platfourm I'm an extreme novice.
I'm on a very low budget for this. I purchased a 350 engine localy that guy stated "runs"... well! not accurate! So I dissessembled that block, (0010 2 bolt) and I will be transfering parts to my other block (4 bolt 0010). The 4 bolt was going to be built slowly This eason, and used as a primary engine next season. Now after this 2 bolt I purchesed is not usable in current condition I have decided to use some parts off it to complete a diecent 4 bolt, and will rebuild the 2 bolt cheaply as a back up. Now the 4 bolt is in good chape and could possibly b used std bore but does have ring lip. I am sure I will have it honed but after the hone I might have to bore .030 So this would render my Factory Pistons Useless.
Here is what I have to work with;
441 76.27cc heads all stock (1.95/1.50 valves) Useable
0010 GM 4 bolt Std Bore Useable
0010 GM 2 Bolt Std Bore Useable
GM Cast Stock std bore pistons (cleaned up) Possible
Std. GM Connecting rods Useable
Performer dual plane Useable
Std GM Crank Useable
My thoughts, Deck the 441 heads and b4 bolt block, Speed Pro +.030 .125 Dome Pistons, .031 head gasket, bore block +.030, Reuse Connecting rods, Polish crank, new bearing gasket kit. 2 bbl 4412 holly (per rules, USRA BMOD) Reaching for 9.5:1 so i can use e85 insted of pump gas or 100 oct. 100 oct is expensive at track. Locally e85 is about 2.78 (gal) 12-651-5 (278XOS) flat tapped comp cam
cut valve guides for increased lift, w/26918-16 beehive springs stamped 1.5/1.6 Roller tip rockers new stronger push rods w/ new solid lifters
Let me know your thoughts I know p 2 v clearance is going to be close but im use to it with zero clearance in DSM's Any help ideas options thoughts coments setup assistance is very welcome and greatfully apprishated..
Thanks,
Steven |
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Post by duckhnter83 on May 13, 2014 10:25:36 GMT -6
What class are you running? What sanctioning body? Imca I assume? We needs to know what you want and what you want to spend.
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Post by s240ka24t on May 13, 2014 11:00:31 GMT -6
What class are you running? What sanctioning body? Imca I assume? We needs to know what you want and what you want to spend. Thank you Duckhnter83 Usra Bmods track is 1/3 mile I believe speeds around 65-70 fairly banked.
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Post by Deleted on May 13, 2014 12:37:15 GMT -6
The speed wont matter, but the RPM's you want to run will. So any idea what RPM you will be running? As RPM goes up, so does the cost!
Dave
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Post by new2dirt on May 13, 2014 13:14:51 GMT -6
My advice is to build the lower end as stout as possible, don't skimp on it... You can pinch pennies in other areas but, it basically comes down to quality parts, assembly and how well they all work together.... the rest is on the drivers ability. Racer96m said it correct, "As RPM goes up, so does the cost!"
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Post by s240ka24t on May 13, 2014 20:49:30 GMT -6
Thx for your input. As for the RPM's im unsure but after a couple runs i will have an idea what to do with gearing to help keep the rpm's down and in a good power band. I don't want to skimp but not sure what is and is not nessessary!
Thanks,
Steven |
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on May 14, 2014 10:32:48 GMT -6
I would use all the cooling tricks and go .066 on the bore for the extra horses needed at 7500! We have run 543-620s on 1/4 mile! If you get rid of the power valve in the car and re-jet it will not get tight when winding up! We turn 2-bolts 8700 with stock clearances, cranks, rods, oil pumps, block-offs, oil restrictors and win-age trays to keep our 5 of 6 quarts feeding down stairs and not adding to the turning weight! Check out my other post and see how to build some horses cheaply! Good rod bolts, restrictors, jets, modified stock heads, springs, gaskets, wind-age trays, valley shields, breather tubes and drain screens are cheap horses and insurance against damage! You can build three for the price of one! Getting flow right eases the bottom end for a long life! Most any can blow if restricted when lifting! Keep yours idled up as not to restrict when lifting off the throttle! Vacuum is more at fault stretching things as well as flow getting tight causing advanced combustion to make it hard on the bottom end! We have ran one of these motors 5 years while winning before it blew up! A 800 dollar fix with stock parts! It was freshened twice! Countless laps running twice a week! Details and prep will get you there! Polish every moving part! Split valve spring pressures by 20lbs! Check the archives for tricks! Question every thing you doubt and most you don't!
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Post by street16 on May 14, 2014 11:00:25 GMT -6
If you are going to use the stock rods, replace the rod bolts with ARP bolts. You know the adage about a chain only being as stong as it's weakest link - the factory rod bolts are the weak link. You will be limited to 7400 RPM with a rev limiter chip - it's under ignition in the rules. I ran the 12-651-5 cam and never liked it. It was great at top end but I was losing 1-2 spots on starts and restarts - it didn't make the torque I needed for my super truck, but it may work better with a lighter B mod. If you find yourself needing more torgue, try the Speedway motors 915-15001 tight lash cam. Cam selection is going to make a big difference in how well the engine performs, so get hold of someone that really knows what they're doing. If you choose the 12-651-5 cam from the numbers you got from their engine dyno program (like I did), you may end up regreting it.
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Post by s240ka24t on May 14, 2014 16:32:39 GMT -6
Thanks for all the info very helpful, i understand some of the points some of them are still greek but i will look everything up i can. I tapped my $ when i baught this 2bolt that was sopost to be good. but wasnt could of used the $ for the 4 bolt So this first engine will be a budget build and see what happens! i need tq to get off the corners. I'm running an older 97 Snow Chassis so it is abit on the heavy side. Keep the comments comming. IF possible thow up a good combo or so so i can get and idea what $ i might be looking at agian this will be ran at only 1 track not every week but couple times a mth.
Thanks Guys
P.S. sorry for punchuation and spelling issues typing fast at work! |
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Post by new2dirt on May 15, 2014 9:35:15 GMT -6
Find an 1182 GM crank, PM rods, install arp bolts, hypereutectic flat tops, shave heads to achieve proper CR, find a set of stock LS beehive springs, keepers & retainers, if money allows 11/32 valve stems... Find a dual pattern tight lash cam, should help the torque a little.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on May 15, 2014 10:30:15 GMT -6
You'll need studs and guide plates or pined studs to keep springs from pulling them out! No valve seals other than O-rings recommended! I have never run beehive springs, just taller valve stems (if needed) and 600 lift stock size springs and retainers with 120 pressure! Good up to 8000 easy when done right! I do drop 20 pounds off of the intake spring pressure to relieve stress on rockers and pushrod friction at the rockers from vacuum adding to the holding of the valve shut to balance stress applied to system! It is like using lighter rods and pistons to balance the load of more compression against the crank throws in rotation. 305 and 350 cranks may have the same number but different weighted throws to match rod, pistons, and ratios of compression! I never lighten a crank but choose my conglomeration of parts to a most smooth engine with no balancer weight added! Just a hub with three holes like back in the day when v8 Chevys came out! (265-283)! Lots of ways to gain horses out side the engine too! It all adds up to more cheaper if you use every trick as I do!
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Post by new2dirt on May 15, 2014 19:08:04 GMT -6
FLIPFLOPOO1OO..... You should compile a list of parts with a description/in-depth details to build/produce a LOW Budget top performer. I'm sure it would help him get into it relatively easier and perhaps faster. Not to mention that I am interested as well... I'd like to build one from your specs. I have a few decent parts kicking around. Heads, block, gm forged crank, pm rods and gm flat top pistons.... Then I'll do a comparison in performance and reliability with the motor I am building. I know a few guys that run shade-tree engines and they do pretty damn good. But, they have been racing for Years and know the ins-and-outs of their cars, set-up, etc.
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Post by flipflopoo1oo on May 15, 2014 20:59:52 GMT -6
Yep! Us old guys can make do with most any build as to tune! Reading all my other post covers most all my tricks for horses! Every build I have done is different in some respects but seems to work by staying as stock as I can! Finding what I want to use and what you have to use is always different! Most any .060 350 bought block assembly works just fine for most when running cool enough with tricks applied! Heads and cams are the good stuff but flow is the key even when stock! Doing this by stretching out lobe separation and added lift and duration only to be detuned as to get roller cam affects with 1.6 rockers and more valve lash or different lash to get the burn timing correct on each is hard to explain with loss of lift that is not needed anyway for this process! Less is better only sometimes when it is related to flow as well as more volume to work with, without slower speeds of fuels and vacuum loss! Getting a good exhaust closing number and keeping vacuum is the hard part of torque and horses while keeping a wider pulling range to put gear to good use! Most all cams peak and fall too quick to please me! I have took a sander to a few or had them polished off the top flat to change the profile a bit but people don't want to do this for you! A lot they could do and won't! Even when told, explained how and paid good money for! A builder wants to help you out and save you from your self! If you had all the tools and parts, the know how to use them correctly, and theories of how to make it all work together, the time to check every new and old part and know there limitations by design, its still a crap-shoot! I listen for exhaust tune and motor binding as well as timing by ear for tune! That's how I run 60 degrees of timing with tons of fuel! I make it work to fit the timing and not build conventionally with bought intakes, heads, carbs and ign. that peaks out at 38 degrees! I don't have all the answers but turn a few rocks and read all my post as it has been covered before!
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Post by Krooser on May 16, 2014 9:40:02 GMT -6
First off welcome to the crazy world of stock car racing…
My son is running a WISSOTA MWM mod (b-mod) this year…. heres what we built.
SBC 355 +.060. 010 block. Zero decked. WISECO Pro-Tru forged pistons w/std. ring pack. Hastings moly rings. Jones cam (243 duration… 333 lift @ lobe on 106 LSA). Stock GM powdered metal rods (bought used for $30.00). ARP rod bolts. GM cast crank. Melling 55 oil pump (stock not HV). 993 heads... shaved a bunch. Si stainless valves. K-Motion valve springs (130# @ seat… 340# open). 7 degree retainers and locks. GM cast intake. MSD dizzy. Old Willy's 4412 redone by our local carb guru. Allstar "corvette" water pump. Champ 7 qt. pan. We have $3500.00 in this engine total including bolt-ons.
Our real budget spare engine… 327 +.030 (free). Speed-Pro pistons (bought for $60.00) Hastings cast rings ($40.00). Cheapo $20.00 Elgin cam (234 duration… .495 lift… 108 LSA). 993 heads ($20.00) with stock valves w/same K-Motion springs ($45.00). Same GM PM rods ($30.00). GM cast intake ($15.00). Using the bolt on's from the other engine. $900.00 in the long block including installing one sleeve, hone 8 cylinders, hot tank, deck, valve job and shave the heads.
Some may say we are wasting our time with our cheap engine program but that's our budget. It's that or sit in the stands… we'd rather be racing.
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Post by s240ka24t on May 16, 2014 10:21:38 GMT -6
Very helpful thanks guys thanks for the parts listing. Keep them coming learning great deal and very well apprishated thank you
STeven
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